What it takes to build the most iconic towers in the world (with Peyman A. Nejad)

Peyman A. Nejad has been involved with some of the most iconic buildings in the world such as the Burj Khalifa in Dubai and the World Trade Center 2 in New York. In this episode we dive into what makes building these massive and iconic buildings a unique challenge and how someone even ends up on this career path.

TRANSCRIPT:

Alex: You're listening to my executive education podcast. Hi, everyone. You're listening to the Wharton alumni Executive Education podcast. And I'm your host, Alex Gramatzki. And today I'm be talking to Peyman A. Nejad, who works on tall buildings around the world. And one of the buildings he has worked on is the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, which is the tallest tower in the world. And he's also worked on the World Trade Center in New York. So I'm really excited to hear how you end up on this kind of career path. And some of the lessons you learned along the ways, because I've seen videos on some of these projects, and it's just amazing what goes into them. So great to have you on and have a chance to talk talk to you.

Peyman: Hi Alex, thank you for having me. It's honor and great pleasure to be a part of your podcast. Thank you for having me.

Alex: Well, I appreciate you being on. So I want to dive right into it. So you worked on the tallest tower in the world? Like what are some of the things that you learn on that? And how do you even end up working on such a mega project?

Peyman: Well, it's not just like, by a chance you end up you have to go step by step through a series of first like education and then practicing and doing either like a project. And then at the end, or at the first I would say passionate. So my passion started with a tall building, I think when I was 13 or 14 years old, so it goes back from when I was in school. So at that time, I really enjoyed the tall buildings, and I knew I'm going to end up you know, working as an engineer, so designing, you know, some of the those tall buildings. Yeah, if I go back through the my schooling and how I, you know, end up as a structural engineer, and then working on some, from the beginning, I was fortunate also to be a part of a good, let's say, design team and affirm who they worked on some of those tall building projects. And then I got an offer with one of also a big, firm, very famous and well known in a tall building industry. And my mentor who was my boss also was one of the great structural engineer who worked on John Hancock Tower, and also Sears Tower, many, many other famous project. And so I had, like a great pleasure. And I was fortunate to working with such a great person. And he's still he's in as a mentor in my life. And I talked to him every other month. And yes, that's how I ended up being a part of the Burj Khalifa and doing some also work on that project.

Alex: So, Peyman, back when you, you know, had this idea when you were a child, where you wanted to work on tall buildings, what was one of the tallest buildings that you saw back then or that was around that made you say, hey, I want to go down this path of being involved in tall buildings.

Peyman: I would say mainly, due to like, when you are a child, you know, you dream a lot. And one of the things I was also dreaming to come to United State, so you know, I'm an immigrant, also. My background, I'm Persian, Iranian. So I grew up in Tehran, which is a capital of Iran. It's a fairly big city also, it’s like a kind of New York. We have tall buildings there. The population I think is around like 18 million people in the capital of Iran, Tehran. So yeah, there are tall buildings also there. And which I had inspired to, you know, when I was kid, you know, going out and see those buildings, and it's very, you know, Persian culture. especially in architecture is very rich, and there are many like a great design. And when you go back to the history, so I was always inspired with those beautiful buildings, and especially the tall buildings in the city. And also, I was very interested to read about, you know, I was reading some books and also the media, like, looking at the TV or see, you know, those tall buildings, that's how he inspired me so to new, this is something I really want to work on. And to be involved in the future.

Alex: When some of the buildings that you've worked on are very iconic structures as well, like, we also talked about or mentioned the World Trade Center. And, if you don't mind expanding on some of the other ones that you've mentioned, to me, in previous conversations we've had just for our listeners, on some of the other ones, because that's, that's very incredible. And, you know, it's part of you know, almost like an eighth wonder of the world or something like that some of them.

Peyman: Each from me, you know, each one of those iconic projects has their own unique say, design and also unique perspective of you know, how to do it. And having said that, there is always you know, a big team on the back of you know, such a successful project is not just one person. So, yeah, there is one person leading, you know, the team, which is, which is very important, who is that leader. So, prior to, you know, the project, I led myself, you know, I was, you know, being involved in so many others, until, you know, I was fortunate to lead World Trade Center Tower Two, so, I was a lead structural engineer on that project. And so, which I was very fortunate to be involved in, in it. So, yeah, as I said, and each one of them, I looked at them very unique, and that designed, because it's not just a design also, when you design it, then you have to, you know, build it, you know, how, you know, what you design is going to go to the construction crew and team and how they're going to build that you have that collaboration between the design team and construction team always. So, an each disciplines involved in the project from architect from the structural engineer from mechanical, electrical engineers, facade engineers, acoustic vibrations, you know, each one of those has their own you know, consultants, so, they are involved in such a big unique projects. So, when you look at you know, for example, World Trade Centers Tower Two, there were fairly, I would say almost 20 consultant, design consultant involved in the project and also then after that contractor, which is the general contractor to client will appoint and then the GC general contractor has subcontractors for each trade. So, like a concrete formwork like a steal again facade for each trades, there are sub contracts and so, if I would say in like a building industry in any project, when you design and build the look at it, there are almost 600 700 trades are involved in such a you know, projects and the complexity of coordination communication is very important. So, how you really convey what you design to the contractor and to make sure they're all really following what you design they can build. So, that's another like, aspect you have to go through it is not just when you finish the design, you handover you know, the drawing to the contractor is finished the job No, well, actually your job is started. Because you go through so many, you know, challenges, okay, there are buildability issues, especially when it comes to the toll Building, there are so many other factors, you have to go through it with general contractor and look at it on the job side. And some sometimes there are buildability issue with the design, you have to change the design, or you have to do some variations and some, some how to come up with a new method. So, yeah, so which each one of those, you have to come up with a Methodist statement and go through that method statement with the construction crew to make sure they follow those steps to build it.

Alex: And I have a lot of questions, because first of all, the World Trade Zones are iconic. And then you know, I'm gonna say rebuilding them would have had its sensitivities to as as well. So I can only imagine the scrutiny and criteria that came with that. And around that. And and have you ever looked at the previous trade centers, and I don't want to go down any conspiracy theory paths at all, just in general, from like a structural engineer perspective? How are these ones built different than you know, the previous ones given? How iconic? They are?

Peyman: That's a great question, Alex, thank you for bringing that up. Well, that's the beauty when I say I'm fortunate, you know, I was very fortunate to be involved in the origin of towers as a post collapse analysis when the tower collapsed in 911. So what happened the government and insurance companies, they start, like assuming, you know, the each other's and it was a lot of things, which questions and unknown for everyone, they didn't know what really, really happened. So they tried to hire some different structural engineering consultants. So one of them were the company, I was working with the my boss, who I said, you know, I was fortunate to working with him, Joe, colossal, professor, Dr. Joe Cola, so, so they appoint him to do the post collapse analysis for the tower. So why the tower collapse, so and I was involved with him to do the analysis. So there are, I'm not going to go very details, because when you do the analysis, you have to do you know, nonlinear analysis with the various special software. So it's called, like a SAP or II tabs. Those software's are structural engineering software. So you work with those software and you analyze step by step, when the plane heat and the feel, you know, started, and how, you know, the progress of the collapse started? So I've done that, for one and half years, I worked on that. So it's highly confidential, I cannot reveal, you know, I'm sure you understand. So, I cannot talk about it, I cannot reveal any information. But yes, I was fortunate to work on on the post collapse analysis of the original tower. And then I was part of the new buildings, you know, when we designed you know, for it, there are differences which we took two considerations, of course, in the new design, and also regulations and a lot of new regulations Adapted after that by the city of New York, and we had to also follow and we also suggested to do some additional measurements in order to make sure the building is sounds you know, very solid and is not going to, you know, anything happened, such incidents, if in future God forbid, and so, now we're going to have that in if in future something incidents like that terrorist attack happened. So, the tower is safe and is now going to collapse. Yes, we have done additional analysis, which called performance based design, and you have to go through that and to make sure there are additional details there additional, you know, design you have to do to make sure the buildings is going to stand is going to be stable due to any incidents like a terrorist attack incident.

Alex: That's really insightful information. Thank you. for sharing that so in summary, it sounds like the second tower was built slightly different than the first or and changes in regulation, of course, the scrutiny. So those, there's regulation, which is one part of, you know, meeting the design structures, then of course, there's, you know, how you want the tower to look and from a marketing perspective and attracting tenants and, and, and, and I think the Burj Khalifa in Dubai also has, like suites and rooms, when it comes to, you know, regulation and design and costs, who I guess I'm assuming the owner, but how is all of that coordinated? Like, that just seems such an overwhelming test? And, and how close do you communicate with owners? And what's the primary goal? is the primary goal always to make money? Is it you know, to be iconic? Or that just if you can share a little bit about that, on those buildings?

Peyman: Sure. That's another great question. So when you, like, have those aims to do the tallest building, and to be iconic, any clients, they don't really think about? For that certain project, you know, the money and the investment side of it, because it's not just that project, whatever is going to be developed around that project is going to make a lot of money. So I think with all iconic projects, like Burj Khalifa World Trade Center, or other tall buildings globally, if you look at it in any city, so what they benefit out of that is the development surrounding, you know, that community and what they are making, you know, really, as a investment, so part of it, to answer your question, in terms of in terms of complexity and collaborations and the codes, Yes, always. There are so many, as I said, consultant and trades involved in such a projects, the complexity of collaborations and communications is a key issue for any of those projects. That's why always there is a project manager involved to manage the whole, like a team, not just only all those consultant who has a main role in the project, but there is always a big, like, a kind of pm role on top of all they are managing the whole side of the project and facilitating between government and other entities called consultants and institutions. There are so many others who they want to run some tests and for such iconic projects, so they facilitate and trying to make that communication much easier. And, of course, there are so many help also, when those developers, they're not really putting all under their, like shoulders to burden themselves there are government also sometimes helping, you know, with facilitating things, you know, with such a big projects, to make sure everything's because first of all, is, you know, something unique for their country, unique for the codes, and they're trying to understand, you know, the consequences and achieving the next step in let's say, engineering or the next step in technology. So there are helps, you know, along the way so from different entities.

Alex: So it sounds insanely complex, and I'm, I'm assuming that you've learned something on each project, what's one of the most interesting things that you've learned or something that you know was was maybe very unique to you, as you've gotten some of these projects that maybe you hadn't think about and then you had to figure out and solve for

Peyman: Ah, there's so many each each project seriously each one of the project for me many has come to the I always categorized you know, the buildings, if it is below five storey I would say everything is the same regular are not many challenges and you can really figure out everything's what you doing. And it's easy fairly designer construction, but when it goes to super tall building and tall building, I would say anything about like 15 to 20 stories. So each project has their own challenge. So, based on our, you know, again, we have low rise, mid rise, tall buildings, then super tall building their Mega tall building, this is in our industry, how we categorize you know, building heights. So, when it comes to something super tall building mega tall building, that means anything above 50 stories, there are so many challenges, and each, each one project has their own challenges in terms of location, any, like you can be in Europe, in US or in Middle East, whether challenges so each country, you know, an each region, I've done project, the tallest building in Europe, which, in Russia, St. Petersburg, where the weather was minus 20 minus 30, most of the winter time. And I've done projects in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, where the temperature was plus 40 plus 45 degrees Celsius, sorry, I'm assuming a lot of our listeners might, you know, so 4045 Celsius is around 120 Fahrenheit temperature in Dubai. So I've done project, you know, in that temperature, there are so many challenges, especially when it comes to the weather conditions. And I've done project, you know, in Russia, where minus 2030 Celsius, again is coming like minus five or minus 10 Fahrenheit. And again, it's you know, you see how the complexity of you know, the weather, harsh weather conditions in such a height, imagine you are 50 storey above you know, ground in that height, and the tower cranes are working, you have to manage the pumping the concrete in that level, you have to manage, you know, the safety and other precautions in that hide. So, each one of those there is a method statement, we have to come with that method for each project is different, like the tower crane, there is a tower crane analysis, we have to do, how to do that method, in such a height in that temperature, or pouring the concrete there is a method of segment, we have to come with that method statement, how to do it in that temperature, or in that height to pump, you know, the concrete in such a height. Yeah, each one is, for me, each project was really I can't say, only one, you know, but each one of them for me was very interesting and challenging project.

Alex: And I can only imagine; my wife is building your concrete residential homes in Houston area, and just when she talks to me about just curing on, you know, single family homes, right, like, oh my God, the things that go into it, and how the whole ground shifts and like, just the weather, like you said, and like so I can't imagine that those extreme temperatures, what else you have to take into consideration, but I think that's the interesting thing about engineering and sounds like, you know, you talk to one of the consultants or advisors and they I'm assuming give you some form of report, and then you have to engineer around those challenges and come up with solutions as to you know, how do we do this and even when you mentioned the crane, I mean, is there even cranes that size like you have to build something to build something it almost seems like

Peyman: The cranes are self climb, you know, they are self climb because the, when you do the tall building, how to construct it, it's really there is a method. So the core the central core, which is concrete, mostly providing that lateral stability for your, for your tower. So the Concord Central Core, it goes ahead up like a 10 level it goes ahead up and the tower crane and also the pumps and the frameworks are self climb mean attaching to that so this, you know, the Save column is goes up with as you bringing your central core up.

Alex: So essentially like, you know, spiders up the wall as wild.

Peyman: Yeah, so that's why I said, you know, the design is one thing and then go through the Method Statement of each of those steps how to build it, it's another big really part of you know, those super tall buildings. And the other very important factor we always when we consider designing tall building is dynamic force, wind and seismic, especially when you are in the regions are high seismic zones, you have to design you know, your thoughts have to take into account the seismic, you know, forces and there are regions where you have the high wind, you know, the gust factors, you know, and then you have to design both, you know, if it's seismic, and when you have to design it for both, you know, and do your analysis for both. And mostly, when it come to the super tall building, the wind is governed, even though you are in a seismic zone, but the when, when it's go to the super tall building above 5060 stories, when these always guard because you have torsions, and you have those, you know, high forces coming to your building, you have to really do the wind tunnel test. So, we go usually through the wind tunnel test to get the forces and then apply those forces to your analysis to size your members like a column beams or slabs. And the other part, which is make it very unique, when we design, the each floors, you have to take to account the drift, because of the wind and the displacement. Based on the code, you know, you go to Account to make sure when you're ours, like occupying, you know, let's say, a building and like Burj Khalifa and you're sitting on a the floor, and the residents on at floors, when there is a high wind, the tower is start moving, but you're not gonna feel it that much, because we design it based on some certain drift and displacement. So the taking to account the, that those motions and make sure people are not, you know, feeling you know

Alex: That you don't want to get seasick up in a high building. So it sounds like there's so many complexities and components to it, what's one thing that you had to get good at and master over your career, in order to be able to be involved with some of these projects.

Peyman: You have to be very good in analysis, like analysis when, if you want to, you know, be involved in designing such a iconic project, I would advise you have to start with a consultant. You right after your school, you work with one of those really top consultants who are designing those projects. If you go to the contractor side, then you're not going to get that 3d, you have to start with a consulting to know how to design it, how do you know do analysis and everything calculations. And then after certain years experience, let's say five or 10 years experience in design, analysis, then you move to contractor side and to be involved in a job size or to be part of the GC or general contractor.

Alex: So it sounds like you know, as a kid, you had this dream of wanting to be involved in tall buildings. And you're now living out that dream. So to a large degree, you've, you know, had this idea of what steps you have to take along in your career. And you've followed those steps. So would you say that, everything you've kind of done and this is going maybe into the personal side of things as well. Everything that you've done, how you've lived out your life has kind of been like, Hey, here's my plan for Life. And here's the steps I have to do. And I've been following those steps. So essentially, what I'm asking is, has your life kind of turned out the way you planned it to because we're so good at analysis are so detailed.

Peyman: Oh, yes, definitely. Definitely. I see I was kid, Alex, believe it or not, when I was five years old, I had, you know, a started planning my life. So I had short term and long term goals, like, I had a goals for a year, and I will try my best to achieve it. And I had a long term goals for five years. And I was trying my best to achieve that. So I always, you know, looked at it, you know, short term and long term one year and five years. So those, you know, been always with me until today. And yes, to answer your question. I knew, you know, 20 years back, you know, where I want to be today. And it's not a really secret. And I can tell you the reason why I did Wharton, I, the reason why I went to the Wharton School do my advanced finance was because in future I want to be a successful developer. And in order for me when I said started with a consultant, and then go to the construction, and then now running my own consulting management firm, but the my next step, I want to be really successful developer, because I have a good understanding of the design and construction, and with advanced finance, knowledge and skills will help me to be a good developer.

Alex: Well, that makes logical sense to me. And I'm gonna listen to the first lesson expertise analysis to say that path makes sense to me. And I think that's incredible, from a young age who had this plan. And I say that because me and my wife, were just talking to, you know, family and friends and and they're essentially saying, life is so complicated, you don't know what's gonna happen, you don't know what city you're gonna end up and, and your story is exactly contradicting to that, in my mind, my wife actually said that I'm like, I'm sure there's lots of people that plan on their lives, and then they follow that path. And they know exactly kind of where they're going to be so so it's interesting to know, from your perspective, so you know, if you have a plan, you have a goal, you take those steps, and you follow that. And that's what I'm hearing you say,

Peyman: Exactly, yes, definitely. I'm a planner person, I'm a very Unschedule and perfectionist, I call myself and, but of course, there are times, you might, you know, just leaning right or left a little bit from your plans, but at the end, you know, what you really plan you achieve those plans. And I'm firm believer of planning, and if you plan and stick to your plan, and be dedicated, and if you are dedicated to do it, you make it happen.

Alex: I hope you know, younger listeners as well hear that message and so you know, if you if you stick to a plan, next thing you know, you're going to be and I'm rooting for you, you know are going to be building the next mega towers around the world. And doing those sorts, it's, it's wild to hear that story from you. And I do hope that you keep us updated on your ventures as well as they develop. And so I think this is this whole story is is overall wild that you've had so far in the path that you've had. So what is you mentioned? Right now that you're planning I guess to finance or own or take on your own projects? How would that even look in this world? Because like you said, there's many stakeholders. So can you expand on that? Like, do you get grants from government? Do they just support you? Do you have to get I'm assuming debt and equity as well? Or how does all that really work?

Peyman: Yes, for my stuff, I haven't started yet. I was planning, to be honest, to start after I finished Wharton, and I graduated you know, in May so but my plan was to start something fairly smaller size not because I don't want to go you know that high you know, something like a 10 story myself between 10 to 20 stories, but we got to this economy turmoil right now, and whatever I looked at, you know, in terms of the price was the real estate was on the roof, you know, the price. So, and other things we had the big problem with supply chains due to the COVID issue, I post COVID, the supply chain issue for materials the materials, again, fully Sometimes up to 60% increase on, like, if you look at still even timber or other materials going so high, so I kind of put it on hold currently until next year to for myself. But to answer your question, yes, we have to go through creating a fund, you know, either through the private, you know, some family friends or private equity, you know, to get that fund in order to build the project design and build the project. So, my goal is to come up with a plan of, you know, what type of project I want to do, where, which location, what, you know, size, and even in terms of the design, I'm going to do some concept design, in terms of the shape and also allocations of the space and knows, you know, if in terms of the investment, the return is good, then I'm gonna, you know, looking for find investors or bringing private or some government funds into it. And then to start the project.

Alex: Well, given your experience and background, I hope you know, that somebody even just listens to this podcast and says, Hey, you know what, get in touch, man, get in touch with you. And whatever project you touch Next, I want to be involved in it. So so I do hope that this, this leads to something because that'd be really cool story in itself as well.

Peyman: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I would be with all do, and pleasure. So if anyone out there would love to get involved in real estate, Investment and Development. I'm happy you know, to help.

Alex: Oh, awesome. Well, thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it and thanks for being on.