From Nurse to Medtech Executive, to Investor, to Searcher (with Adriana Muñoz)

Adriana Muñoz went from nurse, to medtech executive, to investor, Adriana shares her next move, Entrepreneurship Through Acquisition. You will hear her thoughts on the advantages of job training in a family owned business and her passion for gender equality.

Transcript:

Alex: Hello, everyone. I am Alex Gramatzki, and you are listening to the Wharton Alumni Executive Education podcast. And today I'll be talking to Adriana Muñoz, who has spent most of her career in the healthcare services space and now is looking to acquire a company in that space as well. So thank you for being on today. Adriana.

Adriana (0:25): Glad that we we got these podcasts started..

Alex (0:29): Yeah, me too. So I want to dive right into, you're looking to acquire a founder managed company, what made you want to do that?

Adriana (0:39): Well, I had corporate roles throughout my career. And I started a small business when I was in Mexico, with one with a some schools friends and some other partners. It didn't work out, we didn't hit our growth targets. So I had to wind that down in 2019. But I've always been an entrepreneurial and part of the corporate roles that I've had have been entrepreneur, I was sent to Latin America with these large medical device companies to open up their business and, you know, help them establish a larger footprint, take their operation director or whatever it was that they were seeking. I had different roles within the last 12 years.

Alex (1:29): So then backing me up a bit. You started in Latin America or in healthcare, or have you always been in healthcare? Can you give a little bit of background of how your career started?

Adriana (1:39): Certainly, it started as funny as a nurse as a nurse in Chicago. I was born and raised in Chicago. And I thought I wanted to be a doctor until I had a roommate who was a doctor. She was a resident at the time, and I'm like, “Oh, this doesn't seem like a whole lot of fun.” So with all my science classes, I was able to quickly pivot to nursing and graduated from Loyola University with a Bachelors of Science in Nursing and took my first job as a nurse in a pretty rough hospital. It was a trauma center in in Chicago and a suburb of Chicago. And I started my career there, as an ER nurse, I was pretty young and naive at the time. So I would complain about everything, I would bring up ideas about, well, we should improve this process, we should improve this workflow. And I learned very quickly when you complain, you're going to be given the task to improve it. And I did that quite well, actually, for the first two years. So I was quickly given more responsibility as a triage nurse and a charge nurse, then my roles grew into more administrative roles, implementation of new technologies, we had just been acquired by a large health care system. So along with that acquisition came just updating systems tracking boards point of care, testing new accreditations. And that for me was it was pretty clear that I was going to pursue an MBA after that it was a natural transition to what I was doing. And then I went to pursue my MBA at Thunderbird, it's a school that is well known for global business leaders. And it's interesting because actually at University of Chicago, as I was there at a meeting greet, a Spaniard told me about Thunderbird. I have never heard of it before he had applied and was still waiting to hear back. And then I was like, ‘well, I never heard of them.” And so I went to go interview and I fell in love with the school, the culture, everything about the program. And yeah, so I headed out there, did a full-time program. There are two years lived on campus or very close to campus, I met some extraordinary people. And just because it's an international program, I got to do a study abroad and lived in Prague for some time. I also got to do a program in New York City. I just love how dynamic the program was. But I was the Pharma Club, at that time, leader. And I met some great people there and from my first job in medical devices, through that, that club and my network and the professionals that were coming to recruit at our school. So I initially wanted a marketing job. And it's interesting because they said, ‘well, this is great opportunity in Latin America, not a marketing role at corporate, we think you'd be a great fit.’ And then like in Latin America, and that's a sales role. You mean, they're like, ‘Well, I think it'd be a great fit.’ And I remember talking to some of my peers at school, and especially the Mexicans, they're like, are you crazy? Do you mean you're going to Mexico, like they're Mexican in the program trying to stay in the United States trying to get sponsored. So they couldn't imagine that I being a US citizen would have wanted to head to Latin America and live in Mexico through work there. I did and it was actually one of the best decisions that I could have made. And in my career, it was a lot more responsibility than I ever anticipated at that age. And yeah, that was my my start in medical devices. And that took me you know, to other companies, and a lot more growth opportunities with larger organizations.

Alex (6:05): So as a nurse, you essentially started seeing opportunities for improvement. Your peers or coworkers are superiors identified that said, hey, this person can do something with and excel in those roles. You organically grow within organizations, then have them, I guess, self reflection to say, hey, I need an MBA, and I should do an MBA, to take my skills to the next level, so, you know, what the professional say, or what education I can get from that. And then, as an American, you go to Mexico, and you take on this role, which gives you a whole other level of responsibility. And you say, that was one of your best decisions. Why'd you say that was just because it was another learning experience? Or why was that one of the best decisions? For you? Well, I think,

Adriana (6:53): no, now, I believe I would, I wouldn't say I think I believe that it was not an industry that I'm not very familiar with it. But my clinical background for the type of product that we were marketing, or the division that we were representing down there is a highly technical conversation. So my background made me I don't want to say the ideal candidate, but a good candidate for the profile that they were looking for. I was also bilingual dual citizenship. But I didn't have I never had worked abroad. I hadn't ever been a an indirect leader of such large channel partners, business partners, I have many countries as all of Latin America. So you could just imagine it was huge territory. People don't realize sometimes where a flight from Mexico down to like Argentina is almost 11 hours. So it's a it's a large territory to cover. It's the best experience because every country is very different during different cultures, very different ways of working, I had to quickly adapt and learn, implement a lot of the softer skills that you learn in business school that aren't very exciting, you know, some of those leadership classes. Some of the cultural awareness, just some of the softer skills were actually very useful or the most useful, because technically, you're expected to know what you're doing. That was never in question. But it's the leadership that you had to bring to these different regions, to help the local teams grow and achieve their targets. So I was able to learn very quickly. I was the youngest of nine leaders in the region for this medical device. I was the only woman and that my customers were mostly surgeons, cardiac surgeons, vascular surgeons, interventional cardiologists, radiologists, so having to learn how to sell something, technically, was also a first for me. So I got very comfortable, maybe in within two years. I mean, it just didn't happen overnight. As you can imagine, Alex, it's a new region. Every country has its nuances. And I would say the biggest challenge was actually learning how to have indirect communication, the Latin culture and I will say, especially the Mexican culture, is the communication is very indirect. So let's say me being a nurse, I would say Dr. Alex, need you in room one now. We need to integrate his patient and the Latin culture and be like Mr. Gretzky, it's, we would like for you to take a look at the patient in room lawn. And perhaps he's having some difficulty breathing. And if it wouldn't be so kind as you to come and take a quick log and give us your opinion, and thank you in advance for considering my notes and have a great day. You know, it's just very indirect, very lengthy wordy, very respectful, very. There's different hierarchies, the way you informal and formal communication. So it's the Ofsted and two. And these are things that sometimes, especially for an American, it's, it's a challenge you, you can't just tell Alex, I need you to do this now.

Alex (11:07): I would have a big steep learning curve over the urgency, we need it.

Adriana (11:15): You know, I'd like to be able to work in a healthcare setting when nothing was, I mean, in a hospital setting where it was a life or death situation, but you can just imagine from being an ER nurse where communication is direct, there's no softening of anything. I mean, there are some decisions our life and death to going to the corporate world, and learning how to communicate, be politically correct. We have emotional intelligence be diplomatic, that that was actually the toughest part, because not only was I learning it in this large corporate setting, but I was learning it in different countries, with different business partners, who won't they have their own culture and corporate culture and their own ways of work.

Alex (12:04): So how did you learn that? Did you learn that by getting it wrong at times? Did you have a mentor? Or were you just observant as to how others interacted around you? And then kind of replicated that or use it as a guide?

Adriana (12:18): That's a good question, Alex, because the hybrid was trial and error. Then I would always have an employee confident in every region or territory, and they would give me feedback. So it's tough to receive, especially from a report and I would ask for it most of the time, because culturally, you don't give your leader constructive criticism, I wouldn't make huge mistakes, even in my grammar. And we're talking about, yeah, 1213 years ago, when I first got there, where you couldn't look up everything on Google. And just, you know, I have never studied Spanish or I speak Spanish. And I'm completely fluent, but I have never had to work in an environment. So you could just imagine the the learning curve, but I did get a mentor. He was our corporate sponsor, and he was a pretty senior gentleman. That was when I was at Coke. He took me under his wing. And he gave me his insights after working with a lot of our channel partners in the region for 2030 years of the relationship that the organization had the support that I had, and you know, kind of prioritize and pick my battles as well. Not everything is urgent, not everything needs to be addressed this week. One, one of the most important things that I remember. And I've actually implemented it in pretty much every aspect of my life was if you get a message whether that's a text message WhatsApp at that time it was BBN, n e mail. And you fear self can heat it. Don't answer it. Don't answer it until tomorrow. Nothing is that urgent and could always wait for you to sleep on it. And that was probably one of the best, most basic pieces of advice I I could have ever received.

Alex (14:34): And I totally agree with you on that piece of advice. And I asked my wife actually to implement that into my day to day life. And I tell them like nothing I could possibly be doing, whether it's a call or an email, or working on something is more important than than my family. And so if you need to interrupt me or if I'm doing something wrong as the husband or the father like you have to let me know it's not okay for me. Do you not neglect my wife or my kids? Because nothing is that important. And if I look back in hindsight, everything that I thought was urgent or created anxiety in me, I'm like, if I would have done that a day later, or a few hours later, like it wouldn't have changed anything. That's so true if I looked at all the big things that I thought were so important, but I think they gave me a feeling of significance, or the feeling of anxiety, I think I mislabeled actually as, as significant as the significance is time and therefore, that felt important and like I needed to address it right away.

Adriana (16:17): Exactly. And most of them I think, also, it de escalates any communication, that could have gone in a different direction. Have you answered at that time, even though under receivers end? Yeah. Because you all have time to sleep on it, that person who sent the, you know, a message that perhaps sounded rude or impatient, whatever it was, might respond differently the following day, and vice versa. So very simple piece of advice, but it's, it's worked. To this day, that's a piece of advice that I give every one of my mentees.

Alex (16:17): So you develop these technical skills, you have to work with a lot of different experts in their in their field. And you're now developing these soft skills across many different regions. And and now you end up looking to acquire a company because I guess you have that entrepreneurial spirit in you. What are your What are your plans or your ambitions with that? Is it is it financial driven? Is it Passion Driven? Can you share a little bit about that?

Adriana (16:47): Sure, I grew up in a small business, my father is a small business owner in Chicago. And I feel that pretty much, this is gonna sound maybe a little, like I'm exaggerating, but I want to say maybe 80% of everything I know, came from that experience. He would take me there as a young child, maybe five, six years old, and I would clean because that's all I could possibly do at that time. And then as I grew up, the responsibilities would, would come along, right. But with a trade, now you can manage the cash register, now you can order inventory. Now you can go to the bank, he had a few more, when you open up a few more shops with his business partner, well, now you can go close the registers at all the other locations and pay this debt. So this is all before the age of 1213. And if you if you really think about it, my father has third grade level education, and he's a successful entrepreneur. And he just had drive grit resilience. And that was how I was raised. So when I look at how my children that are growing up in a very different and privileged like Jesus, these kids and they don't face any adversity, how are they ever going to learn? I feel that getting my once again, this entrepreneurial venture, and now in an industry that I actually know really well, which is healthcare, because my other My first attempt was, and beauty services. This time, I'm like, No, well, I want to do it. Now. I actually will have my two daughters and I want them to to learn on the job. I won't need to have to work. Learn how to be a responsible, young adult. And just be better prepared for the real world. And I think those are invaluable skills, and you can teach them in a very, and then very, I don't want to say it doesn't feel pressure. Children are actually it's very, I never, I never complained about having to go to work. I was paid for it. So my dad gave me like $20 a day and I felt like wow, this is so much money. And I would buy all my own stuff.

Alex (19:34): Yeah, and speaking of adversity, and kids and next generation, I'm sure we all complained about our adversity, but I don't know what adversity they face. But I read an article recently that Gen Y and Gen Z is now want to get paid to go to interviews because it's taken away from their leisure time and that they have to prepare for an interview and they can't handle rejection. And the world is coming to a strange place of people not being able to handle adversity and it comes in different ways, right? Maybe it's all relative. But so I totally hear you on wanting to give your kids that experience of that hands on to teach them if skills that you believe are valuable and are valuable, in my opinion as well, but who knows what's valuable in the future?

Adriana (20:20): So, no, no, but but we have to build more resilience in in children. And it needs to be gradual, right, like, I see how my father probably didn't have a plan on how he wanted to raise his children with this certain skill set. But he knew well, at this age, she can do this. And the next step would be here, she's shown to, to not give out wrong change in the cash, cash register, okay, maybe she can help me with, you know, some bank deposits. And that's pretty much how it went. And I think, some, some of the, or this younger generation, without having real life experience, I remember when I was in college, and I went to like a nice North Shore Chicago School, we all work, every single one of my friends, even the ones that came from the most affluent families have a summer job, we all worked. And some of these jobs are pretty crappy. But that gives you the, that gave you real life experience that gave you baby a tough boss. Crappy customers, if you worked in service. It gave you some resilience on how to manage different situations. And I, if children, I mean, if young adults, if their first job is after college, they're in for a rude awakening on what it's going to be like. And I think that that's where, where these small family owned businesses can add so much value, not only to me as a professional, Alex, but to my children.

Alex (22:09): Yeah, and that's what I was getting at. So it sounds like it's, it's something that you want to do to also help your children succeed and develop skills that you believe that will help them. And I also believe will help them long term and that's something that you can put money on, because that's almost like the prerequisites to an MBA. That's why a lot of MBAs require you to have job experience because without it, you have nothing to grasp on to, you know, ideas to talk onto or nor experiences when you're going through those lessons be like, Oh, this is how I could use this as my job. So totally hear you on that

Adriana (22:44): front. Definitely, definitely.

Alex (22:47): Um, wow. Okay, so you're currently on the search for a company? What have you been doing on that? Because I see you also, I think you're also an investor, and other companies as well. And you have a board position. How are you searching for deals for the specific venture? And what else are you doing on those things? Because I saw a few things on their LinkedIn profile that I thought were pretty interesting as well. You want to touch on those?

Adriana (23:10): Definitely. So I'm just initiating my search. I'm reaching out to my network down here in South Florida. So I actually relocated from Mexico City last year to South Florida. Because I needed to expand my network and support also an initiative that I feel very strongly about women in career advancement of women in the healthcare industry. I joined the HBA, which is the healthcare Businesswomen's association for a global association of 14,000 members. It's mostly life sciences companies, but we have members from the entire ecosystem. So I started that position last year. So I have built an amazing board of extraordinary women who are supporting the mission ambition of healthcare, Businesswomen's Association. And that's one aspect and how I'm reaching out to my community because these businesses as you can imagine, Alex's that they don't, they're not being sold on Amazon, right, like, there are some brokers out there. There are some websites but a lot of this will be knocking in cold calling on copters. I even considered having gone the search fund route. And I haven't taken that off the table because that will give me the ability to for a larger acquisition. I am currently speaking to a person who could possibly be my partner with that search fund because I think if I go that route, I will need a partner. nonetheless. The other aspect or one of my passions is Being an investor in venture capital, we this fund that you see their portfolio invests in mostly women led found women founders, a lot of technologies that are there to support women or underrepresented groups. I'd been an investor for a few years, and I'll continue to invest in continue to invest with these women. Because I get very involved in one of these LPS that gets involved with deal flow, doing due diligence, just being part of the ecosystem, introductions, support, advisory, anything that they would require to be successful. I'm passionate about it. And I also advise founders, startup founders, and a lot of young professionals, and I think it's, you know, Alex, as I'm sure you, you are where you're at, also, because you had some great mentors and people that paid it forward, and you want to pay it forward. You know, now that you're successful, entrepreneur yourself.

Alex (26:16): Yeah, thank you. And I totally hear you. So it sounds like you have your ecosystem, so to speak, set up due to your life experiences, which is great, and have your hands on a lot of different places, which is amazing. And giving back on that side, as well. So seeing all those different things, what's one of the most unique things you've come across or that you've had to deal with?

Adriana (26:36): Well, unique. If I would say you need, I would probably say popsicle that I come across during my professional career, and why I'm so passionate about helping underrepresented groups, and the HBA was, because in my when was it, it was a few years back and employer, I was asked to step down from a GM role. When I brought up to my leader that I was significantly under compensated compared to a male, peer and a support role. I took legal action against my employer, it's been a long, lonely path, one that I do not regret. No, I feel pretty adamant about if it, if we want change, we must be willing to take action. We can't be, you know, social media warriors, we actually need to take action. And especially in a country like Mexico, where women are 50% less likely than men to receive equal wage for similar work, there are huge gender, pay gaps, and it keeps, it actually gets much larger as a woman moves up in their career. So that's been ongoing for multiple years, because it's, I haven't settled that necessarily because of lack of interest, because I actually want a judge to hear a case like this. Ken, can you believe there's no precedent for gender discrimination in Mexico. So that's probably my, one of the most challenging things that I've had to face. In my professional career, and I, and why I'm so passionate about preparing women, young professionals, health care, investing in underrepresented minorities, and specifically, women.

Alex (28:51): And I love that you're taking this initiative. And I want to challenge you on something here, because I don't spend enough time on this at all, because I'm a male, I don't have an I have to quite, quite frankly. And so I'd love to hear some thoughts from you. All, in the answer might you might have a strong response to this. But what why why is it not then when you sign a contract and you say you underpaid? That you just quit and find somebody that values you? And maybe I'm oversimplifying that, and maybe that's, you know, too broad across the industry, but I'd love your your input on that. Because if I think about it from an entrepreneurial perspective, I deal with a customer or supplier, I negotiate the terms at the beginning. And then if I don't like them, you know, I either have to honor my contract because I have to sign it, or I renegotiate or terminate the contract but it'd be great to have some of your thoughts on as well because you're going to be much more attuned and in touch with it than I am.

Adriana (29:50): So I guess I want to understand your question. Why not just quit when I realized that I was being significant

Alex (30:00): They underpaid. Yeah, that's essentially the question. I'm not sure.

Adriana (30:03): No, because there, there needs to be action. Alex, there needs to be action organizations. I actually, it's funny because this is a fortune 500 company. And I actually thought they would just correct it. I wanted to believe that it was an oversight, and that they would take action. But it was probably something my leader didn't want to tackle who was newer to the organization. And he knew that I was coming back to the US. So probably didn't want to open up Pandora's box, because this was an issue throughout the region. And I think they believe that that because of my family, check transition, that I would welcome a severance package. And that I would not make any noise about something that have been going on for some time. And the only reason I, I was the GM, I knew everybody's salary, I had to hire everybody. And this was not we need to take action, Alex.

Alex (30:20): So this is something that felt to you was, you know, not everyone's aware of this information, I become aware of it, and do something about it for a greater purpose. Because if not me, then who so to speak?

Adriana (31:33): Pretty much I'll be honest with you, I was a little disheartened that a lot of my male mentors told me, Oh, don't rock the boat, you're such a talented professional, you don't want to be blacklisted, you don't want to get you know your your name involved in some lawsuit. And surprisingly, pretty much every woman that I spoke to, was not only supportive, but had experienced a similar situation. But for X or Y reason coding, take the actions that I took, maybe that they were the breadwinner in their family, or they knew that they would be blacklisted. And that they would have a reputation of being a troublemaker, for asking for equal pay. I mean, these are things that are just senseless, and especially in today's environment issues. We shouldn't be having these conversations anymore. Alex,

Alex (32:48): I totally hear you. And other people, like you said, don't have the ability to stand up for it because of whatever reason it isn't. And I think we saw that happen when the COVID vaccine requirements came out here in us in Canada, where a lot of people felt like they didn't have a choice other than to get vaccinated, whether it's university students or employees at risk of losing their job and, and you know, some people had luxury, so to speak of fighting back, they believe that you instead but this whole idea of, of, you know, people being coerced to accept lower pay, or getting kicked out direct quarters, and to some degree, it is because like you said, they, they're the breadwinner of the family. So they can't put up that battle, they can't take on this risk, because the risk to them is too great. So somebody else has to say, Oh, that's amazing that you're taking that on and that you're doing that that's that's really wild, so good for you.

Adriana (33:41): Thank you. And surprisingly, it has not prevented me from getting hired or moving on with my career. So everything that my my mentors told me like, that's actually not happened. So I'm glad I did it. Because I'm bringing awareness to a topic that that needs to be addressed in Mexico. And I've actually, you know, throughout the last year have received support. I've done some interviews to raise awareness. Just today, I had another interview with a prominent activist in Mexico who wants me to speak in a in a national forum next week. So it's, no I can't I can't complain. It's still a long and lengthy process. But it's got to get started. And I would hate Alex for my daughters. I have two daughters, for them. To know that their mother did nothing in the face of injustice.

Alex (34:33): Well, my wife and I are the same. We feel the same we feel like you know if we're not going to fight for our kids then who was so so we have to stand up for stuff like that. So good for you. That that's really amazing during the right thing that's so important.

Adriana (34:47): Thank you, Alex. Yeah,

Alex (34:49): so then what's one of the biggest successes you know, you mentioned that was one of the obstacles but in it there's like, no limit or successes as well. So what what would you identify as one of your biggest success Since,

Adriana (35:02): well, it would have to be my ability to transition in my career, from a nurse to a med tech executive, to a consultant and investor to reinvent myself or look at different facets of my career. I think that's one of my biggest successes. It's not easy. Alex, because you can imagine when I, when I arrived at over as a Marcel, as a consultant, it wasn't strategy type of consultants, or performance improvement. I mean, these guys are, they do restructuring and turnaround or m&a advisors. They do transaction advisory. They're they're actually the reason why I joined Wharton, they have programmed. I needed to get stronger and more familiar with corporate finance. So that we're talking about me in my early 40s. Right. So going to a role and feeling dumb and being humble about it, and saying, I need to get more education for this pivot that I'm trying to make my career. And I was willing to invest the time and money that effort to do so. And that's probably why today Yeah, Alex, I'm better prepared to do this entrepreneurial acquisition, because I, I now can be a better professional, right, because it's something we always face some challenges with with my other startup was cashflow. And I think many founders have the same issue. I think it's just being able to pay payroll like. So that's one of my biggest successes, in addition to obviously, having met my wonderful husband and being a mother, I mean, at the end of the day, that's what matters. I mean, nobody cares about my title. Nobody cares. No one cares about all these professional and academic accolades. I mean, it doesn't matter if, if I don't make it to like my kids, gymnastic practice, you know.

Alex (37:26): I got it. I got my daughter's gymnastics today. So I have to make it there as well. So she loves it. And that's why I'm speaking to your husband, and I guess your support system on your mentor that you mentioned earlier? I'm gonna circle back to a question I have about, you know, you taking on this legal battle for gender inequality on unpaid? What you mentioned in your female supporting you, but what support did you have at home or from your family or your upbringing that has allowed you to take on some of these, you know, wanting to do the right thing, challenges that, you know, seem risky, maybe at the front forefront? Or maybe they didn't seem risky to you, but what what is your upbringing and your support system looking like there's to allow you to do this stuff.

Adriana (38:15): So my dad raised me in a very, I have a younger brother, and he treated us exactly the same. It didn't matter that we come from a very traditional Mexican family, we were treated the same. We all had to do the same chores. We all have to work we all it's, we were treated equally. And having grown up in the US, Alex, I also never even considered that a woman can be paid less than a man, especially because I entered as a nurse because the hourly rates were were known, they were published, like, this is how much you make. It's very, I don't know if you know the history of the health care, but it's like the military. Like that's how you were paying it, and it was designed that way. But my husband was surprisingly extremely supportive. I mean, he's always been supportive. But he's he's a corporate guy. He's been around in his same employer. He's been in the same employer for 20 something years. He's a new trooper. He's just an incredible professional, but it's not his style to make noise. So I thought that he was gonna like, Oh, really? Why should we do that? I don't know. But quite the contrary. He was. And you know, why Alex because he knows who I am as a person. He knows that I'm not fair. I just and I always try to do the right thing. So for him, it was like, of course, I'm going to support my wife. She's, she's a great role model for other women for our daughters. And it's been amazing that he's been through this journey, because there's some highs and lows. I won't lie when there are some days that it's a little lonely, because you ask for something that I take the right path? I don't know. But my father, obviously, I mean, he couldn't even it couldn't even imagine that I would be treated unfairly, because you've raised a tough cookie. He was like, what? And that I would allow, you know, even worse, like, it just he was extremely supportive. And the two most important men in my life, have supported me, even though some of my male mentors, that I know, it came from a good place, Alex, that didn't necessarily agree with me taking legal action. But I think it's their own fears that were showing, when they would give me advice to just turn the page that I'm in, you know, like you said, why don't you just go get a job somewhere else?

Alex (41:28): Now, sometimes it's, you know, do I look out for myself? Or do I look out for the greater good, and ideally, we want people that look out for the greater good and make the whole world a better place. But that doesn't always happen to be the case. And we end up with with a lot of more selfish decisions. So it's amazing to hear her story and sharing that. So thank you.

Adriana (41:46): Thank you, Alex.